by Barrie

Frank Jude Boccio and I first connected over a post on my own blog about the differences between dualistic and nondualistic yoga philosophies. Like me, Frank is interested in clarifying the common misconceptions about these philosophies. As I’ve learned more about his work and teaching, I was impressed by the depth and clarity with which Frank made distinctions between yoga and Buddhism and also pointed out their similarities, all of which I believe are important for all dedicated practitioners to know about. So I approached him about doing an interview with him.

While interviewing him, I appreciated learning about his background, about how his long-time study and practice has evolved over the years, and about his approach to yoga that is grounded in the philosophical context of the Zen Buddhist tradition. I hope you enjoy our interview!

Barrie: For readers who aren’t already familiar with you, tell us little bit about yourself and your work.

 Frank: I was born and raised for the first two decades of my life in Queens, New York. From an early age I read voraciously, everything from science to mythology, and had some experiences that I only came to understand when I began to read books about Buddhism in High School. Besides being introduced to the pleasure and adventure of literature by my mother, my mom’s passion for music proved contagious, and I actively sought music outside the mainstream. And when I was 12, I discovered both Indian Classical music and The Velvet Underground, both of which had immense influence on my life.

Indian music and books about Buddhism sparked a lifelong interest in India—its philosophy and culture—but it wasn’t until I was 20 that I took my first yoga class at the World Yoga Center and soon after began practicing Zen at New York Zendo Shobo-ji. Eventually, I found my way to Integral Yoga in the West Village. It was a time when both the Yogis at the ashram and the Zen practitioners at the zendo distrusted each other’s traditions and strongly condemned any “mixing.” Later that decade I lived in the East Village, bartending at a drag queen and punk bar and writing about music and film.

Skip forward another two decades and in 1995 I certified as a yoga teacher and two years later took precepts and was ordained into Thich Nhat Hanh’s Order of Interbeing and became a full-time teacher. While studying Yoga with Georg Feuerstein and Soen (Korean Zen) with Samu Sunim, I wrote my book, Mindfulness Yoga: The Awakened Union of Breath, Body, and Mind. And in 2007 Sunim ordained me as a Poep Sa (Dharma Teacher).

By then, times had changed and I was invited to teach at both the ashram and the Zen center where I began practicing. As for my teaching, from the first I have endeavored to offer a practice that evidences the great overlap between Hindu and Buddhist Yoga, without whitewashing the significant theoretical and practical differences.

Since 2007 I have been living in Tucson, Arizona. I have two daughters separated by 36 years.

Barrie: Tell us about your particular approach to teaching yoga.

Frank: My particular approach to teaching yoga is to present the various asanas and pranayama practices that have developed out of the Hatha-Yoga tradition as vehicles to cultivate and practice the various Buddhist meditative techniques, including anapanasati (Mindfulness of Breathing), satipatthana (the four domains of mindfulness), the immeasurables (friendliness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity), and lojong (mind training, grounded in a Buddhist philosophical context.)

Barrie: What’s been your experience of blending Yoga and Buddhism, both in your practice and teaching? How do the two traditions complement each other in your experience?

Frank: In response to this question, I have to first remark that we need to be clear about what meaning of the word “Yoga” is being used here. The Buddha was a yogin and what he taught IS a Yoga. To quote the late, great scholar-practitioner Georg Feuerstein:

 “Yoga predates the three main indigenous religious cultures of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. They are not so much religions as great cultural complexes born on the Indian subcontinent that have yogic (spiritual) practice at their core.”

With this understanding, I am practicing and teaching Yoga as soon as I start to give meditative instructions, and without ever offering any asana outside of the seated meditation posture.

In my response to the previous question, I point out that for me, I am “blending” the expansive postural practice of Hatha-Yoga (Hatha is not a ‘style’—all forms of yoga that utilize a variety of postural practices are Hatha) with the meditations and philosophy of Buddhist Yoga.

Finally, if by “Yoga” one is referring to the Classical Yoga Darshana (“philosophical school”) of Patanjali, then what I take from that are specific practical and pragmatic concepts as well as offering a Buddhist interpretation of some other key elements, but I do not at all resonate with the dualistic philosophical foundation found in The Yoga Sutra.

 Barrie: What suggestions would you have for people who are interested in combining Buddhism and Yogic teachings? How would you suggest they approach this?

Frank: Most succinctly, I’d say “with respect!” There is much richness and many overlaps, especially in the meditative practices to be found in both Yoga traditions, but one must respect the significant philosophical differences. I would say if anyone wishes to combine or integrate from these two traditions, they should ground themselves in one philosophy or the other and cultivate from that foundation. And intellectual honesty should also always dictate that one be clear about where they are basing their teachings and practices and when interpretations and alterations are being presented.

Barrie: You’ve taught philosophy in yoga teacher trainings for many years. In your experience, what are some of the most useful philosophical concepts that can help people in their everyday lives?

Frank: Two linked concepts that are also practice oriented which can be used by anyone whichever worldview they ground themselves in come from the Zen Buddhist tradition. First, there is a saying: “Don’t know mind is most intimate.” This points to the tendency we have to pay attention to things we don’t know but to then pay less attention to those people and things we think we know. We may take those people we know for granted when we do this, losing intimacy. We may live much of our life on autopilot and lose a real sense of embodied presence. “Don’t know mind” reminds us that we never really know with absolute certainty, and that we might be better off thinking as a scientist does that whatever we know is provisional and may change with new information. Practicing “don’t know mind” can help free us from cognitive biases as well by simply asking ourselves, “Am I sure?”

The other concept and practice aligned with the spirit of “don’t know mind” is the proverb: “Great questioning, great awakening; little questioning, little awakening; no questioning, no awakening.” The second of the seven factors of awakening is dhamma vicaya, which can be translated as “the investigation of phenomena.” So much suffering is created in the world by those who refuse to question their perspectives and beliefs or by accepting what their teachers or texts say without deeper investigation. The Buddha offered what is sometimes called the “Magna Carta” for free-thinking when he told the Kalama people to investigate for themselves what kind of beliefs and behaviors lead to happiness and peace and to cultivate them, and what kinds of beliefs and behaviors lead to suffering for themselves and others and refrain from them while testing them against the consensus of the wise in order to avoid self-deception.

Barrie: According to your Wikipedia listing, you’re now in your mid-60s and you started practicing when you were 18, so that means you’ve been practicing yoga and meditation in some form for close to 50 years. That’s impressive! If you had to summarize it, how has your yoga practice changed and evolved over the years?

Frank: Over time, the practice has moved from something I do to something that is simply my way of life. I refer to practice as vocation, not rehearsal. In the same way we speak of a doctor practicing medicine (and hoping they are not rehearsing on us) yoga is my vocation. Formal practice still involves asana, seated and walking meditation, prostrations, and chanting. The rest of my life is informal practice; from the way I try to listen to what others are saying to the way I empty my dishwasher, my intention is to do it with full presence of mind. I personally do not believe in any afterlife, but whether there is or not, I KNOW I’ve this life. As my teacher would say, “just this, just here, just now,” and I want to make sure I don’t miss it but rather live life as fully as possible.

Barrie: What have been the most important practices and perspectives—from either Yoga or Buddhism—that have supported your own experience of aging? 

Frank: Oh! So much of Buddhist teaching has made an adventure of aging! First, “Mindfulness of the Body,” which is the first of the “Four Domains of Mindfulness” I referred to earlier, helped me deeply penetrate the true nature of the body by meditatively exploring the not-self nature of the body, how it is interdependently created and always changing. Second, the “Five Remembrances,” which is a contemplation introduced to me by Thich Nhat Hanh in the early 90s, reminds us that there is no escaping aging, illness, and death; that all of us will be separated from what we love and hold dear. That this is not a punishment or some kind of failure on our part, but simply the natural order of things. AND, most importantly, the fifth remembrance tells us that we cannot truly escape the consequences of our actions and that what we think, say, and do affects the world!

I am sure that this practice of the Five Remembrances made my journey through cancer and treatment in 2019 free from fear. As I’d sit with the other men waiting for our radiation treatment, I saw the anxiety, fear, and sadness etched in their faces and was honored to be asked to share some basic meditation instruction to ease their suffering. I often say that mindfulness meditation is the embodied practice of the Serenity Prayer from a non-theistic Buddhist context:

May I cultivate the serenity to accept the things I cannot change (like aging, illness, and death), courage and determination to change the things I can (like a quick to anger temper), and the wisdom to discern the difference, living fully one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, taking this world as it is and not losing myself in delusion.

Barrie: Is there anything else you’d like to share?

Frank: Thank you!

Poep Sa Frank Jude Boccio is a Zen Dharma Teacher ordained by Ven. Samu Sunim, a yoga teacher, writer, podcaster, and dad. His 2004 book Mindfulness Yoga: The Awakened Union of Breath, Body and Mind, published by Wisdom Publications, is still the only book of its kind to base yogic postural practice on two suttas where the Buddha gave complete mindfulness meditation instruction.

Frank has travelled the world offering workshops and retreats, and offers a Mindfulness Yoga class via Zoom every Sunday. He has written for Yoga Journal, Tricycle, Shambhala Sun, Namaskar, and other journals, as well as maintaining several blogs. His podcast Pobsa’s Dharma Lounge is on YouTube and all the major podcast platforms. He is currently working on a follow-up to his book that will center teachings from the various Zen traditions. For more information, visit his website at www.mindfulnessyoga.net.

 

Download a free class from Barrie’s new Yoga for Times of Change companion video series and learn more about her book Evolving Your Yoga: Ten Principles for Enlightened Practice at www.barrierisman.com.

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